Wedding Blog
I had always planned on changing my name to my fiance’s last name. Recently, I’ve explored the option of moving my last name into a second middle name, as many have discussed on weddingbee before. For example, my new name would be myfirstname mymiddlename mymaidenname hislastname. My maiden name would literally no longer be my last name, but legally added as a second middle name.
I brought this up to my fiance, and he didn’t respond very well. Now, after he realizes I was serious about possibly doing this, he got extremely upset at me. He literally told me that HE WON’T MARRY ME if the marriage license says “Firstname Middlename Maidenname Hislastname”. He was yelling at me when he said this. He is normally pretty laid back about a lot of things, and is not abusive to me or anything like that. But, he was so incredibly serious about this that it scared me. No matter what I said, even when I reiterated the fact that my current last name would not even be my legal last name at all, and that everything I signed, etc. would be Firstname Hislastname. He basically said that I literally had no choice in this and that it is just what you do when you get married.
I guess my question is, whose decision is it really? Isn’t it mine? Does he have the right to force me to do this? Is this his “right” as my new husband? I really don’t have anything against taking his last name at all, I just felt a little sense of loss at the thought of changing my name altogether. I know some might say that if he literally won’t marry me because of something like that, we must have other problems, etc. but that isn’t the case. I have never felt the need to be submissive, etc. at all to him in this relationship. We’ve always been equal, but like I said, it’s so surprising to me how incredibly mad he got.
Any thoughts on this?
Andria
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First of all, that’s a pretty scary response. Second…they are taking his last name. I’m not sure why he can’t see that. You’re making your maiden last name a middle name….
It is, above all, your choice whether you want to keep or change your last name.
It is your decision because it’s your name but a good friend of mine gave me some great advice–if you would consider his feelings when deciding where to go for dinner, you should consider his feelings when deciding something this important.
It sounds like you need to talk to him and find out where his strong feelings on this point come from. It may be a cultural thing, a belief that was instilled in him at a very young age, or it may be fear that you are not committing 100% by not changing your name 100%. Discussing the underlying issue should help you reach a resolution.
It is very important that you deal with this situation directly. If this is the first time he has blown up at you then (a) he is probably really emotional about the issue, which requires a real discussion and (b) you need to make sure that you don’t establish a pattern where he yells and gets his way. That’s no way to start a marriage–for either of you.
This is YOUR name, and it is your choice. I got married last year, and my name now is the same format as the one you want: Firstname Middlename MaidenName HisLastName. I wanted to completely replace my middle name, but in the state where I live that’s strangely difficult.
Check out the Lucy Stone League at http://www.lucystoneleague.org . They are dedicated to women having the name they want, and have guidance about how to do that.
I really can’t figure out where your fiance is coming from on this, and I don’t want to disparage him, but this sounds like a warning sign to me. Your name is YOUR NAME, and it is emotional to change it, no matter what you’re changing it to. This is such a tiny thing to explode about - and you’re still changing it to his name - that I worry for you. He needs to back down.
Good luck on this.
Maybe this is a silly question, but are you doing any kind of premarital counseling? That sounds like something you may want to bring up…
In my opinion, this is not his decision. I mean, obviously, he should play a part in the decision, but I think ultimately, it’s yours to make. This is your identity you’re talking about, and changing it so completely can be sad.
That would scare me, too… I hope you guys can figure this out!
It’s absolutely your right to chose what you want to be called after the wedding. I’d be a little scared if my future husband wanted to control my name!
I agree with the suggestion of bringing this up in premarital counseling, if you are doing that. This needs to be resolved.
Uh, I am really really concerned.
First off, lets just establish that it is common and traditional for a woman to take her maiden last name as a married middle name (Laura Ingalls Wilder traditional, or Scarlett O’Hara Hamilton Kennedy Butler traditional). It is slightly less common to keep one’s maiden middle name when doing this, but it probably means your former maiden last name will be used even less as a second middle name.
Second, why anger? Why does he think he gets to order you do to something? Why isn’t this a discussion or communication between you? My husband was somewhat sad that I didn’t want to take his name, and we had multiple discussions on the topic, and I strongly considered doing it *as a favor or gift to him* but ultimately he respected my decision to keep my name. He even got it enough to entertain the though of hyphenating his name or our future kids names or taking mine.
Third, threatening not to marry you over this is a dealbreaker, in my mind. I would head straight to a counselor. This kind of threatening to get your way is not a good precedent, and even if he is serious (he doesn’t want to marry you if you woln’t change your name) it is not the kind of thing to be said in anger, as a tool during a fight.
If you allow the precedent to stand (that’s it is OK to threaten drastic things in the middle of a fight) just imagine the future: If we don’t name Johnny after my grandfather, I’m divorcing you. If you don’t agree to move to Idaho where I got this great job, I’m going to go anyway and sue you for the kids.
It is not an acceptable threat, even if he is very hurt (and strangely hurt) by your name-change plan.
This is a sensitive topic - one that takes a lot of patience, sensitivity and understanding on the groom’s part, and a full embrace of what marriage means on the bride’s. Your fiance needs to hear - from a third-party perspective - that abandoning one’s name and taking on another’s is not something that’s done lightly. It’s an honor for any man to have his future wife take his name, and a decision that I think a lot of future brides come to after painstaking consideration.
It’s unfortunate that he wasn’t willing to hear you out or even try to see it from your perspective. I’m sure under other circumstances, your FI is very sweet and nurturing towards you; however, given how his reaction “scared” you, I think you need to get to the root of his reaction, and subsequently, his temper. And then hopefully, you’ll be able to reach some level of compromise and understanding.
I think he might need to realize that keeping your maiden name as a second middle name is not a sign of disrespect to him — it is a symbol of keeping your own identity in addition to becoming one with him. If he expects you to not be “you” anymore when you’re married, and rather be an extension of him, I’d be very, very worried.
I plan to change my last name to my FI’s when we’re married, and replace my middle name (which I have no emotional attachment to) entirely with my maiden name. If FI had a problem with that, I’d have to seriously wonder if his ideas of what a wife’s role is matches the person I have worked to become over the last 27 years. Honestly, we’re in 2007 — he’s lucky you’re taking his name at all!
Just want to send my support to you… if my fiance had a reaction like this I would feel disturbed and scared. What else could turn out to be a ‘no-discussion’ issue with him? To me, it’s not as much the specific name-change issue as the reaction which makes me hope that you two will meet with a premarital counselor. Speaking for myself, the counseling sessions I attended with my FH gave us great communication tools for working through difficult issues. NO decision that you make should be overruled just because your fiance has a strong belief, but maybe counseling can help him explain his feelings to you in a more constructive way.
I am actually very concern about his reactions than anything. Threating not to marry you over a name change? I understand how this is a big deal to some guys, but why not have a civil discussion about it instead of resulting to threatening. I would definetly sit down with him quick.
Please look at your relationship carefully. Even though he never showed any abusive signs before, he’s showing a BIG one right now. Yelling, controlling, threats–these are all serious signs of abusive behavior. I think you recognize it yourself. Please do the smart thing and don’t think that he’s the only person out there who you can marry. It’s better to be single than to be in a bad marriage.
You need to sit down and talk to him about this once things have cooled off and explain where you are coming from. If he does not respect your decision, I would suggest some sort of premarital counseling because it seems his possessiveness the a bigger issue here. What you are trying to do is perfectly reasonable. I would be severely concerned about his reaction given that you are prepared to spend the rest of your lives together.
I had always planned on taking my husband’s name. But when the time came, I was a little sad and wanted to keep my old one as my middle name. So i dropped my initial middle name and switched my new last name to my middle name. No problem.
Everything Ms. Albatross so eloquently stated. You need to think about the future, your name does not even matter at this point- how is he going to react to future disagreements that concern you? It is your choice, you were trying to discuss it civilly and this is how he reacted. His reluctance to discuss things calmly is the more important issue right now.
Sounds like heavy-handed micromanagement. You say this was surprising, but think carefully about whether he does this in other areas of your life.
What’s extra alarming is that he’s making an issue over your MIDDLE name (you’re already planning on taking his last).
(P.S. For what it’s worth — You probably already realize this, but having 2 middle names in the U.S. is a PITA but it can be done. They always seem to run out of room on forms or they shift the 2nd middle name into the last name space, or drop one of the middle names, or there’s only room for 1 middle initial. It’s a minor thing but just be prepared to do a lot of explaining and correcting.)
I’m not so much concerned with your fiance’s reaction as everyone else is. First, I knew early on that my fiance would not marry me if I did not take his name. Of course, he always knew that I would take his name, without question.
perhaps your fiance doesn’t really understand that what you’re proposing is to take his last name because there’s a public perception that as long as your last name is still there, you’re hypenating it or you want people to refer to you by that name.
Case in point, I changed my name to FirstName MaidenName LastName because I had no middle name to begin with. I constantly get asked by people what my name is, what I go by, and I’ve even had people hyphenate my name, even though it’s nowhere on my driver’s license. Sometimes, I wish I had just gone to: FirstName NewLastName and skipped MaindenName altogether.
Finally, I do recommend having a long discussion with your FI and trying to understand why he got so vehemently angry. All I know is that had I sprung the same conversation on my husband after we were engaged, he would’ve flipped out and threatened not to get married if he thought I wasn’t taking his name. As for the other comments - yes, it is 2007, and my husband is not a jerk or a control freak. We have a joint account, I have my own credit cards, I work late hours, get rides home from other men, and go out with my girlfriends without calling for hours. But, we’re also married now and it’s very important to him and to me that we’re a family in one of the most outwardly apparent ways.
Yeah, yelling and getting really steamed up over a silly name change, which isn’t really one, is borderline abuse in my mind. If he reacts like that to something this trivial, who knows what he’ll do if you make a decision without him? I’d double-think marrying this guy if I were you.
Did you two discuss name change at all before that took place? If so, I think that kind of reaction is fairly bizarre on his part and is not a good indicator of things to come.
I think that the decision is between the two of you, in other words some sort of compromise should be met. Your idea sounds like a good one being that you are adding your maiden name to your middle one but still taking on just his name, so I don’t see what the problem is.
Now my fiance told me long before we got engage that he would never marry a woman that didn’t take on his name. I was OK with that because (1) he told me a head of time, therefore giving me the option to stay or go, (2) it’s his opinion and he’s entitled to it, and (3) I’ve always planned on changing my name to begin with. He didn’t yell or force me to anything. We talked about it and discovered our feelings were the same.
Obviously you still want to marry this man and see a lot of valuable characteristics in him, but you ought not rule out his reaction. There’s probably no need to cancel or postpone or rethink or do anything drastic, as I’m sure this period of time is taxing and emotionally draining on him as well. Overall, it is definitely your decision. You are a grown woman who has obviously done serious thought on the topic, and dismissing your wishes because he irrationally believes otherwise could be very dangerous. Make sure there is a clear discussion, and don’t get bullied into making a decision that you don’t want. It’s YOUR name!
If you look on the “rules” when applying for your marriage license, it specifically spells out, you are under NO obligation to change your name!
I am more concerned about his reaction. I don’t think your decision is at all inconsiderate. You are taking his name and moving your last name to your middle name. You had the consideration to talk to him about it, he should have the same consideration to discuss why or why not he feels the way he does.
Just know the decisions is YOURS. Take a step back and maybe talk to him about it again. Or not! It’s your decision.
Your FI reaction to this suggestion is very suprising! It is definitely YOUR right to take his name if you wish, you are under NO obligation to do so.
It’s important that you recognise there are two issues at stake here, not just one, and you need to address each separately. One is how he feels about the name change issue and coming to an agreement on what your name will be. Two is how he handled his feelings and expressed himself.
I can relate to your situation very closely. I have always intended to drop my maiden name and take on my fiance’s name when I marry so it’s sort of a moot point, but I recently discovered that my fiance would possibly have considered it a dealbreaker if I were to refuse to take his name. It’s a very emotional issue for him and he just feels strongly about sharing a name as a husband and wife. I think we as women need to understand that for some men, the issue of their wife taking their name can be as emotionally charged as the idea of letting go of our maiden name can be for us.
However, my fiance handled himself very calmly when we discussed this. He did at one point feel that me not taking his name would have been a dealbreaker for him, but I didn’t feel scared or threatened by him because he didn’t yell at me or get angry. I don’t have a problem with him having this as a dealbreaker, but I would have had a problem if he had not been able to talk to me about it in a calm way like an adult.
You need to address the anger management issue here first and foremost and the name change issue as a secondary problem once the first has been addressed. And your fiance needs to treat you with respect and needs to understand that no matter what your name ends up being, that it’s very difficult to give up your name overnight and he should be sensitive to that and not expect you do it at the drop of a hat with no thought.
I don’t want to downplay the concern I have for the strength of his reaction, but thought my situation might help. When I started to talk about this stuff and we discussed what I was going to do, my (now) husband didn’t understand the issues involved - because he had never, not once in his life, ever considered changing his name or thought about how that would feel to him. Once I talked to him in those terms, he started to understand more of what was involved and what I was feeling.
No excuses for the freak-out, but maybe this will help when you can sit down and talk to him?
It is your decision, and it ultimately doesn’t affect him whether you have an additional middle name or not, unless he decides (as it seems like it has) that he is not okay with that.
Like others have said, it is concerning that this dealbreaker for him has only come out now. Premarital counseling would be a wise move.
I am planning on changing my name after marriage but when I brought up the possibility of keeping it to Mr. Peony (just for fun), he was against it. When I asked my guy friends how they felt about the issue, they all said that they would want their future wives to change their names too. Maybe I just know very traditional guys?
That being said, your fiance’s reaction IS disturbing, especially since you mentioned that he’s not one to overreact. I definitely would talk to him about it and get to the root of the problem. Love (and marriage) takes a lot of compromise and you two should try to work out a solution that works for both of you. Good luck!
Andria–the decision is certainly not his. It’s not just yours either, but that means it should be a team decision. Future hubby is not acting like your teammate, here. We all have strong feelings about things our future or current spouses do, but there are constructive ways to express them that does not degrade the integrity of your team. Maybe it’s a maturity thing and he just made a goof. But it definitely should cause you to reflect on whether he is working for your team or working for himself.
Good luck!!!
Aside from the reason or outcome of your situation, his reaction needs to be addressed and seems to be what troubled you most.
Threats and ultimatums are never a positive way to start a relationship you hope will last the rest of your life. I get that it is a very important subject to him, but he could have let you know in a reasonable way.
I would suggest that you get some outside advice/help. He may just say (or think) he was mad, but it was enough to really frighten you and on that alone I would not let this pass without some serious consideration about who you are really about to marry. I’m not saying the outcome can’t be a good one for both of you, but this may be a deeper problem than you realize. At this point you have a lot less to lose.
Woah. Yes of course this is your choice and not his. He should be thrilled you have decided to honor him by taking his last name at all. If you want your last name as a second middle name then he needs to accept that.
On topic portion of response:
But NYC, you DID keep your maiden last name as part of your name. Do you really think that it would have been appropriate and acceptable for your now-husband to threaten not to marry you if you expressed a desire to keep your maiden last name as a middle married name? Is that the level of control and micromanagement you expect from a partner, even one whom you apparently embrace for his traditional values? That he completely overrule any desire on your part to keep your old name, no matter the reason, in no matter how small a role?
Second, why is it a PROBLEM if there is a public perception that she did not completely obliterate her old last name? (Yes, I understand there is a logistical issue. But there is a logistical issue no matter what you do; some people will assume you have changed and others will assume you have not.) But it only makes sense as a PROBLEM if you buy into the logic that she is not fully invested in her marriage if she doesn’t change her name, or that she is a wacko nut-job feminist (and that is a bad thing) if she doesn’t change her name. I reject these “problems”, and argue that others should as well.
Off-topic portion of response:
NKC - so did your husband offer to take your name? Or to hyphenate so that you both would have the same name? Either of those solutions would have also resulted in a common family name.
With all due respect to all the other trappings of equality you mention, it’s still a patriarchal tradition, even if it is one that many women and men still embrace for a variety of (symbolic and practical) reasons. The woman’s previous identity is chopped off, and her husband’s identity remains the same, in the name of “blending” two people into one marriage.
Its still a legitimate and traditional choice, but in an egalitarian marriage, it would not be imposed unilaterally on a wife by her husband as a condition of the marriage. In an egalitarian marriage, that is.
why is he concerned about it saying that on the marriage license. The marriage license has nothing to do with your name change. It is the social security office that does that. The marriage license will never list his last name as your last name, it will list your birth name.
Wow. I intended to add my own reply, but Ms. Albatross has said it far better than I am able.
what a disgusting response. he shows complete lack of respect for you as an individual and as a human. i would have to argue that though you not have had previous experience with him being abusive, this situation certainly is.
controlling another human being IS ABUSIVE. manipulating the woman he claims to love by threatening to call off the marriage if he doesnt get his way IS ABUSIVE.
just to give you a bit of warning, nearly all relationships that experience domestic violence and physical abuse all began with controlling behavior. controlling decisions you make, people you see, how you live your life. little by little this emotional abuse opens the door to physical abuse.
caving into his demands now will only set a precedent that it is acceptable for him to bully and badger you into going along with whatever he says, now and evermore. if you stay with this man, counseling is a must at this point.
inform him that around 20% of women do something creative with their last names upon marriage, and also several men change their names when they marry these days. forcing you to do something you don’t want to do just because he believes everyone else does it is not only inappropriate but also misinformed.
Gah! After reading your post and all of the comments, I started writing the long winded comment - which was turning out to be very heated…so I stopped.
Bottom line - it is your name (regardless of how you arrange it). If it is a deal breaker for him he can either stick to that ideology and potentially lose you, or grow up. Sorry if that was harsh, but COME ON PEOPLE - it is 2007 for GARSH DARN SAKES!!!! Oh, and if you give in to this (that is if you feel strongly about it) don’t think he’s ideology around this won’t pop up in other parts of your life/marriage/family/children/etc. Ok - I’ll stop now.
HamiHarri — Calm down. People are free to do whatever they want. Remember? It’s 2007.
Another thing, if the two people involved are RATIONAL adults who actually communicate with each other on regular basis then they will be able to get through this situation even it means splitting up because ultimately, I would rather have the choice to make that decision than not having one at all.
Andria, I’m so sorry to hear about this, and you are right to be scared. You should be scared. I would be very scared. I have read that it is not uncommon for people to be able to hide their controlling and (physically or emotionally) violent tendencies until after marriage.
It is quite possible that this is how this man will react in the future if he is angry or feels threatened. During a lifetime together, he will probably feel angry or threatened many times, and you probably do not want to be involved in escalating and hostile conflict.
Please seek a counselor who is familiar with working with couples where one person has a desire to control the other and is willing to use aggressive measures to achieve that control. As a reference to anyone reading, more about verbal abuse is here: http://divorcesupport.about.com/od/abusiverelationships/f/verba_abuse.htm
Only you can know whether this marriage is right for you. Some advice I wish I’d given to a now-divorced friend is it’s better to call off a wedding than get a divorce. I don’t know if this applies to you, but it may apply to others reading this thread.
The poster who said that the name issue is secondary is completely right.
Legally speaking, if you are over the age of 18, only you can change your name — not your spouse or parents. In most states, unless you are trying to commit fraud, you can change your name to anything you like — even a silly name. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_unusual_personal_names
Many happily married women these days do not change their names at all, and many happily married men change their names. Your name is your identity, and your identity should be whatever you want it to be — whether you are a man or a woman.
Best of luck figuring out what is right for you — yes, you.
On the one hand, I can understand the concept of a “deal-breaker.” I am keeping my last name after I’m married and if changing my name were a condition of my marriage, I would tell FH to get over it or go find someone else. Thankfully, my FH is enlightened and that won’t be a problem.
On the other hand, like the other posters, I have serious concerns about your FH’s reaction. If he is quick to anger and tells you that you have NO CHOICE over something that’s YOUR DECISION I don’t think that bodes well. And I have difficulty understanding what he’s mad about: if I understand you correctly, your legal two-part name will be FirstName HisName, which sounds like what he wants.
Bottom line, grownups should be able to have a rational discussion about this issue. Someone blowing up and screaming at you over anything should be a red flag.
Try talking to him, this sounds like it is something deeper and you need to communicate better. i think there may be somehting he is not telling you? are his parents v traditional?
Obviously it is very important to discuss this as calmly as possible with your FH. I just wanted to add one comment - I notice that you wrote that you’ve always planned on changing your last name, but only recently considered keeping your last name as part of your middle name. Obviously this is your right to do so, but I wonder if your fiance got so emotional because he felt that this signaled a change in feelings on your part? That does not excuse yelling or threats,; I guess I’m just trying to help figure out where he was coming from to have such a strong fight-or-flight reaction. I truly hope that you can find a way to discuss this issue - as well as constructive ways to disagree - so that you can start your marriage joyfully, and without resentment on either end!
i’m sorry but i couldn’t marry someone so adamant about this name change. yes it signifies committment, but so does hyphenating or (dare i say) his taking your last name.
How often does he refer to you by your full name?
I have a friend who did this, and normally she signs her name Jane X X Doe. Occasionally she gets asked about the two X’es, but for the most part, she is just Jane Doe. She and her husband are the Doe family. Essentially, you are changing, so I don’t see why he is so upset.
I agree that you should take his feelings into consideration, but he can not command or forbid you to do certain things about your name. I know that you said this is a new thing, but I would talk with him ASAP about what other things he expects you to do when you are married. Yes, the name change is one thing, but it can signify traditional expectations that may carry over to other aspects of how he views married life.
I agree with everything Ms Albatross said as well as other who said that this is a clear warning sign of an abusive partner. I do not want to turn this into a lecture on abusive behavior, but your fiance’s reaction to your name change seems completely unreasonable and irrational. Obviously we don’t know him and we don’t know you, but his response was quite alarming to me. I worry about you having to be concerned about his reaction to major life decisions for the rest of your life.
Your husband never has the right to force you to do anything.
I glanced at some of the responses, and unfortunately the only one that I thought you should really think about said…if you would consider his opinion on where you’re eating dinner tonight, why not consider his opinion on the bigger things? One of the problems is marriages (I think) is that (mostly) women don’t take their husbands into consideration. They act as if they’re still single, not worrying about another person and what their feelings/preferences on a matter might be.
As far as your identity being with your name, I just don’t see how that is. My identity has nothing to do with my name…it’s how I act, treat people, and feel about myself. You could call me whatever, but I would still be ME.
Obviously your fiance feels strongly about the name issue, but his reaction (assuming what you say is true) is not necessarily disturbing. He obviously feels that he’s been unable to communicate to you how important it is to him that you take his name. From what you’ve said, I gather he feels that you keeping your maiden name (in whatever form) is not giving of yourself 100% to him. That’s why they call it “starting a NEW life together.”
Just some thoughts.
Ha ha, Mary is absolutely correct. The marriage license states the groom’s pre-wedding name and the bride’s pre-wedding name. Name changes are for AFTER the wedding, on the social security card, passport, driver’s license, etc. Silly fiance!
That’s why it’s good to have any honeymoon airline tickets in your maiden name, ‘cuz you probably didn’t get any of your ID’s changed yet.
I don’t think Trish Browning read the whole thing; she’s already agreed to take his last name. It’s about the MIDDLE name.
I also am being forced to take on FH’s last name.Apart from that I am forced to change out of my wedding dress into a more traditional costume for the reception. If Idont the wedding will be called off. I am so stressed just months before my wedding as I feel so manipulated. People tell me to just let go and give in as it’s only a question of one day…and a marriage lasts a lifetime.
Andrea I feel for you.. I know exactly what your going through..I am in the same place
Wow! There are some serious issues going on there.
I’m keeping my name, not changing a thing! My fiance is not thrilled about this, but he respects my decison and would never yell at me about it or give me an ultimatum.
There is no law that says you must take your husband’s name when you marry. That’s ridiculous. As someone state, “this is 2007″ and many women have altered the name change tradition. It’s your decision, hands down. No matter which way you go, the name has nothing to do with how much you love your husband and the relationship you have with eachother.
Ask your fiance if he would be willing to give up his name and take yours? See what he says to that! That question certainly changed my fiance’s mind on the subject.
You have the right to do whatever you want with YOUR name. He is clearly being unreasonable. And maybe after he thinks about it- he will calm down enough to have a rational discussion with you.
Be strong Andria- With a response like that you can always change your mind and keep your own last name. Afterall that is what most people do these days.
A marriage lasts a lifetime with the wedding as a foundation to the future. If he is unreasonable about this, what else will there be?
I respectfully disagree with commenters who think that name-changing should be a shared decision. The only exception would be the alternative of devising a new name together.
It is her name, her identity, her choice. Otherwise, why doesn’t the wife get a say in the husband’s married name? Imagine this argument with the roles reversed.
Along the same lines, in response to comment 21:
“I think we as women need to understand that for some men, the issue of their wife taking their name can be as emotionally charged as the idea of letting go of our maiden name can be for us.”
Note the crucial difference here: In this example, the woman decides whether or not to relinquish *her own* name, the name that has always belonged to her, without adversely affecting the public or private identity of her fiance. Unless, of course, he sees precisely this action–the desire to maintain a sense of self–as the offense.
On the other hand, the man responds with a sense of entitlement to something that *doesn’t belong to him.* He is trying to change someone else’s name, to impose his will from without. It is not his decision to make. IMHO, I have a difficult time feeling sorry for men like these, whose self-aggrandizing insistence on name-changing amounts to so much privileged whining.
Relinquishing a name–or having someone take on your own name–is no doubt an “emotionally charged” issue for some people. But when women are called upon (either by their future husbands or by social pressure) to make a choice that men are never expected to make, we cannot view these as parallel situations. It is easier to pitch a fit about name-changing when your own name is never at stake.
hello people. Not taking the mans last name can be emasculating. Ego is part of their nature, and it is that ego that attracts us to them. Don’t castrate your man. Unless you are more passionate about ‘wanting’ to keep your maiden name than he is for you to drop it than forget about it. Why do you need to rebel against tradition? If you lean more to the feminist side, why don’t you just have your man drop his last name all together, he can just take your maiden name too?
Look up feminism….it means the belief in equality between men and women.
A man being forced to take his wife’s name is not feminist, it’s just as bad as a woman being forced to take her husband’s name. A feminist solution would not compromise either’s ego.
Call me traditional or uptight, but I wouldn’t want my husband to change his name.
At the end of the day, my name doesn’t define me. I’m more than happy to take my husband’s name and I understand why it’s important to him that I change my name to his (our life together, children, him providing for us if and when I ever want to be a stay at home mom, etc). If it bothers you, talk to your FI about it and ask him to explain why he’s so upset.
Don’t let the dealbreaker aspect of it keep you from being sure that he’s the one — if you have any doubt, it’s much easier to call things off before you’re married than after.
Persephonie and Tara - you said what I tried to get into words with my original comment, but was too steamed to do! THANK YOU!!!
This is such a touchy topic. Patriarchy and feminism aside, the problem is that Andria’s fiance threatened not to marry her if she wouldn’t drop her maiden name entirely, with no explanation. That’s the big issue, not taking his name or not. He may have never acted this way before, but I’d be willing to bet money that if Andria doesn’t find out why her fiance is acting like this, and then makes him understand that this is not acceptable behavior from a partner, he will do this more and more once they are married. And that’s not going to be a very happy marriage. I’m a bit older than a lot of you, and I’ve heard many times about how some people’s behavior changes after the wedding. This needs to be addressed now, and Andria and her fiance, or her fiance alone, should get some counseling about it.
Good luck, Andria. And I don’t mean to be alarmist or anything, but if you’re suddenly not sure you want to go through with the wedding–put it off. It’s easier to reschedule a wedding than go through a divorce.
I just spoke to my FI about this because I was so cheesed off about this post. I am not changing my name, and it has NEVER been an issue with my FI. A man does not have to feel emasculated by your desire to retain your last name, nor does my choice to not change my last name mean I don’t love him or “respect him” any less than the next person. If he feels that he’s less of a man because you don’t have his last name, that’s HIS problem, not yours. There are going to be many times in the rest of your life together when you are going to disagree, and if he takes each of them as personally and reacts as immaturely as he has with this, there are going to be problems. Stand firm in your (totally reasonable!) decision, and have a long talk with him to help him see how ridiculous his reaction is.
NKC-
Clearly you and your husband are well-matched in that you both have very traditional ideas about gender roles in marriage even if you are allowed certain modern privileges. You see him as a provider and yourself as a potential stay-at-home mom. There is no mention of stay-at-home dad.
You also have conveniently gender-specific ideas about the importance of a name: “my name doesn’t define me … but I wouldn’t want my husband to change his name”.
———
Not all people share these ideas about marriage, and the idea that a man changing his name is emasculating. (Why? Is a man so fragile that a name change lessens his manhood? How strong is woman then, or is that the point, to strip a woman of what identifies her and make her just an appendage of the man she marries?)
And if one is marrying someone who envisions rigid gender roles in marriage, including the right to dictate the exact formulation of his wife’s middle names, I completely agree with you that it is best it come out early, before the marriage happens, so they can discuss the implications.
One implication might be that they are poorly matched, and Andria wants a marriage that involves conversation on important issues while her fiance wants to be able to scream and get his way. Or, he might have just had an extremely poor and unacceptable reaction to a surprisingly upsetting issue. Either way, he seems to have much stronger feelings his wife’s name than the original poster anticipated, and this warrants some serious conversation on several fronts.
Persephonie - I’m sorry but if a couple can’t sit down and discuss this aspect of marriage (and mind you a very minute aspect) then the two should not be getting married.
Ms.Albastross - I don’t recall NKC mentioning anything about stay-at-home Mom either.
I view the idea of the name change being just the woman’s decision being just as bad as a man who forces his fiance to change her name to his. What the heck ever happen to COMPROMISE? When I read some these comments I don’t feel as though am reading from grown women actually discussing an issue but rather from a bunch of young girls who refuse to listen or try to understand someone else’s feelings or concerns, etc. That’s no better than a man who refuses to listen to what you have to say. Keeping your maiden name, combining, hyphenating, or just taking his name are all OK as long as the BOTH of you have talked about it and are fine with it.
Norcalbruin - reread NKC’s comment #51 second paragraph - she mentions potentially being a stay at home mom.
Kim - I see. My mistake. With that said, if that’s what she wants to do then that’s her business. As long as she has a choice.
norcalbruin - I agree that COMPROMISE is an important part of marriage — but isn’t Andria compromising by taking her fiance’s name when they are married? Why isn’t he expected to compromise and allow her to keep her maiden name as a second middle name?
I think when you said that you feel as though you are reading responses from “a bunch of young girls who refuse to listen or try to understand someone else’s feelings or concerns,” you are discounting the fact that Andria’s fiance yelled at her to the point that she was frightened. How is she supposed to understand his feelings or concerns when they are not addressed in a calm, adult manner? Why does she have to be sympathetic to his feelings or concerns when he has most certainly not done that for her?
Many people have said that the way he addressed the situation — not the situation itself — is of the utmost concern, and I think that has dictated how people might have responded in a more stubborn nature.
well said BA, i wanted to touch specifically on this point: “nor does my choice to not change my last name mean I don’t love him or “respect him” any less than the next person.”
if a man doesn’t offer to change his name, it is not usually considered that he loves or respects his wife any less. so why are women held 100% responsible for making sure their choices demonstrate their love and respect?
i hate it when women who decide to take their husbands last name say things like “well i am proud to be married to him” or “well i love him so much it doesn’t matter what my name is” as if to say 1) men don’t have to demonstrate how proud they are of their wives and their love is not quantified based on their last name 2) women who don’t change their names are somehow ashamed of their husbands or don’t love them as much as the changers. both are very rude and arrogant assumptions.
which is why i suppose i am marrying someone who loves me “so much” that he wants to change his name too, “so much” that he treats me with respect and dignity, and “so much” that he doesn’t need me (or my decision making abilities) to become his property in order to feel like a man.
and to the person who suggested that name-changing issues amount to castration: puh-lease, it takes REAL balls to marry a strong woman who knows what she wants. a man whose masculinity is toppled merely by a name is not much of a man to begin with.
Well said, ms. tea — I consider myself a feminist, and I have made the decision to take my fiance’s last name, but I don’t think less or more of women who keep their own names. I’m not taking his name because I think it shows that I love him more than other women love their husband, or because he “deserves” to have a wife with the same last name. I just want to! And it’s my choice.
Brooke - Please read my comment, #17. I mentioned that it was bizarre that he reacted like that and she should be concerned. My other comments were directed toward the various responses on here — not Andria. Also, in that same comment, I said that her compromise was reasonable and didn’t see any problem in it.
To answer your questions: How is she suppose to understand his concerns if they aren’t addressed in a calm manner? Simple. If you consider yourself to be a stong woman then the idea of confronting him and finding out what the problem is shouldn’t be tough. Afterall, you plan on marrying him so chances are this won’t be the last time a disagreement will come up.
Why she should be sympathetic to his concerns? Well, I wouldn’t use sympathetic, more like objective, and she should because someone should be the adult and try to work things out. Communication is the most important make-up in a relationship yet this basic tool is constantly pushed aside. You aren’t going to get anything done by not talking so it just better to start something rather than nothing.
I just think that his response was a bit scary, as many others do. No matter ho he felt about it, he should explain it nicely to the one he loves… you know?
Curious, you said: “I also am being forced to take on FH’s last name.Apart from that I am forced to change out of my wedding dress into a more traditional costume for the reception. If Idont the wedding will be called off. I am so stressed just months before my wedding as I feel so manipulated. People tell me to just let go and give in as it’s only a question of one day…and a marriage lasts a lifetime.”
Yes, marriage is for a lifetime, and a wedding is one day. But people who would FORCE you to change your name, and FORCE you to wear their wedding dress under the threat of the wedding being called off, are going to continue to force you to do things you don’t want after the wedding. Just with different threats. Is that what you want? A lifetime of threats? I’m sure you love your fiance, but you have to look at how he treats you in *every* way, not just when he’s in a good mood or happy. It’s what he does when he’s stressed, unhappy, or not getting his way that shows his real character. If my fiance had told me that I had to take his name or the wedding would be off, I would hand him back his ring. I so hate reading things like your post, it makes me worried about what young women are doing to vouchsafe the fancy wedding and good marriage they think they want and need. What you *really* need is a man who respects you enough to let you make your own decisions. Now, you might make the decision to take his name, but it shouldn’t be forced on you. Please think about your options, Curious. It’s not going to get better after the wedding. Trust me.
Wow. What a charged topic. I think there are a few things that would be helpful to know before an outsider could really comment on this matter:
1) How long have you two known each other and been engaged? (Meaning, have big discussions like name changes come up before — money, family planning, etc.)
2) What ARE his reasons? (Is it cultural, a family thing, or something else?)
3) When was this discussion? Last week? Last night? (I mean, was this last week and he’s still fuming about it and reiterating this threat? Or was this a night or two ago, and he feels badly now?)
I certainly don’t condone his reaction, because it was pretty dang extreme, and you have every right to be scared. BUT, engagements and wedding planning can be stressful — some brides wig out and shriek over the exact hue of pink for their flowers, so I can understand why a lasting, legal change would freak someone out on either side. And lest you all jump on me, no I don’t think that type of “I won’t marry you” threat is acceptable; I’m just saying that people often say things they don’t mean in the heat of an emotional or stressful moment. Obviously, her fiance has some deep seated issues about this.
I hope you guys find a neutral third party to talk to about all of this, someone who has the opportunity to know the deeper details of the situation and help you both figure out what’s going on here. And yes, as others have said, you should consider if this reaction will become more common in the future, and thereby evaluate your relationship.
And, for the record, I’m Mrs. First OldMiddle MaidenAsMiddle Last, and it is ABSOLUTELY your choice what your name will be. You’re the one who has to change all your identification docs, credit cards, bank info, etc.
Late to the party, but thought I would add two comments.
-I see a lot of comments about him possibly being abusive. Certainly this is something to be concerned about, because many abusers do “hold it in” till they get married. However, even if this is not the case, he could still have a problem with rage. My father is certainly not abusive in any way, but he will fly off the handle at the weirdest stuff - and he is VERY scary when it happens. The problem has gotten worse as he’s gotten older - mom says that he was never like this when they first got married. My mom recently realized that it actually is probably a symptom of his uncontrolled type 2 diabetes. In any case, its very unhealthy for all sort of medical reasons for him to go into these rages. So I think its probably essential to have a talk with the a councilor, who can help figure out the reaction. And maybe a visit to the doctor for a full physical might be order too.
-My other story is just an antidote about my friend whose fi insisted she take his last name. She agreed for his sake, although her preference would have been to keep her own. At the rehearsal, the minister asked what they would like him to announce them as at the end of the ceremony and gave several options. My friend preferred “Mr. and Mrs. Hisfirstname and Herfirstname His lastname”. The groom however, firmly said “No” and insisted on “Mr and Mrs Hisfirstname Hislastname”. I could tell that my friend didn’t want to make a scene, but she was pretty pissed that her whole identity was completely ignored. (Well, I suppose she got to be “Mrs.”)
Finally, its totally your decision. He MAYBE got some say - as in telling you his preference and you taking that into account - in you taking his last name. But you keeping your maiden name as a middle name? That’s totally up to you.
You could always just change your maiden name to your first name! What would he think about that? :evil grin:
whoa. i’m quite surprised by the previous comments. i didn’t know that suggesting a name change was indicative of abuse…
girl, you’re not alone. in the beginning i didn’t even want to change my name at all. but my FI also felt very adamant about the name change, and after seeing how important it was to him, i decided i’ll change it to make him happy and leave it at that. in the end, its just a name, not my entire identity (although it can feel that way) . it took me awhile to feel comfortable about it but i guess you just have to reflect upon it for yourself to see what you really want to do and how you feel about your actions/possible consequences, etc…
I’m concerned about the term “dealbreaker”. Both Andria and several other posters have used this term. If this is something he feels so strongly about, how has it NEVER come up before this? If this is something SO important to him that he is willing to throw away your entire relationship and cancel the wedding over, then one would think he would have brought it up before proposing– or ideally when things started getting serious between you.
For a man who professes to love you enough to want to build a life with you to call keeping your maiden name as a MIDDLE name a “DEALBREAKER” is unbelieveable. Yes, a marriage is many ways a “deal”, but a deal should be based on COMMUNICATION and COMPROMISE and he clearly has a problem with both. Will he find other subjects “dealbreakers” once you are married? Will he threaten you with divorce to get his way when you disagree?
And for him respond with such forceful anger is something to be VERY concerned about. It’s true, he may just be “stressed”, but it could also be a preview of abusive behavior to come. Like so many other posters, I recommend you get some pre-marital counseling. And not just the kind you get from the minister who is marrying you (if you are getting married in a church). No offense to the church, but in my experience either the minister is more concerned about your church-going habits than anything else OR the couple is too embarassed to bring up certain topics in front of a “man of God.”
You all need a neutral party and a safe place to discuss this. A good counselor will be able to draw you both out on this and other topics and hopefully teach you some good communication techniques.
Andria, I know you must be having some very scary and confusing feelings about this. If he won’t go to counseling with you, go by yourself. I’m sure that it’s been hard to read some of our comments, but clearly they are out of concern and caring for you. Hang in there and may you find peace whatever you decide.
agreeing with a lot of responses above and that your fiance’s response was a bit much. i understand that for some men definately having their wives take their last names is super important, the way some women feel that keeping their name is just as important. in any case, hopefully you will be able to sit down with him and talk calmly after he’s been able to calm down himself. you are taking his last name afterall anyways!
i view the name changing business as something interesting because on the one hand its traditional — but isn’t this tradition based on the fact that women took their husbands name because they were considered the male’s property?
if taking your husband’s last name is a way to show family solidarity in the most outward of appearances, why can’t the man take the woman’s last name? oh because that would be emasculating wouldn’t it?
it’s like that move with Matt Dillon and Kate Hudson and Michael Douglas where Michael douglas tried to make matt dillon take his daughter’s last name (aka michael douglas’s last name) instead of his own, and it was like cutting off matt dillon’s manhood to really take another man’s name.
it’s just silly…people should just take whatever name they want. whether it is keeping their own name, taking their husband’s, or even the husband taking their wive’s if they want!
Wow, let me first say, thanks to all of you for putting forth the effort to respond to my question. I hope I didn’t create a monster here, as it seems like this has created a lot of heated discussion.
After all that, I certainly feel the need to elaborate. Since this conversation a couple nights ago, things have been fine. We haven’t really talked about it, however, I did tell him I would take his last name and that was the end of it.
Maybe I didn’t communicate this well the first time, but my fiance has a history of blowing up about various arguments, etc. that we’ve had. It was the name issue he hadn’t blown up in the past. A lot of times, it’s something that I’ve done over and over again, and have not “corrected”, like maybe not keeping up with the laundry or something, and he then takes this and turns it into this big thing about how I don’t do anything or I’m lazy or whatever. This is by no means the only example of this, but basically what I’m trying to say is that he does blow up at me periodically and has said some bad things to me in anger. It’s an issue I’ve always known he has had, and whether he’s willing to admit it or not, I think he knows that he does do this and that maybe it’s not right. It is definitely something that we maybe need to address whether it be through counseling. We have certain “things” that are vices between us, and we both know it.
Also, I think the root of some of this comes from several things:
1. I come from a family where the woman was kind of the “main” person, and made most of the decisions, and kind of took control (but not to a point where my dad’s opinions didn’t mean anything). His family is completely the opposite (I won’t even go into it!) where his dad controls everything to a point that is borderline subservient. Also, I tend to make a lot of decisions is our relationship. He isn’t very close with his family, and we spend a lot of time with mine. I pay the bills and handle most of our finances. After we are married and have more joint accounts, I’m sure we’ll both be making decisions on these things. I think what is bothering him the most and what he mentioned was that it was “the one thing he wanted”. He said he’s a pushover when it comes to a lot of things, but that this was the one thing he really wanted. Basically, I think I have a certain amount of power at times and growing up like he did, he probably just doesn’t realize that power dynamic his family had was ingrained in him and that may be affecting how he sees our relationship.
Also, taking his name was never really discussed, I just think we both assumed that I’d take his last name. Then, after some other options I heard, I just began to consider it. I honestly didn’t know it was as important to him as it was. And, like we’ve all said I AM taking his last name. He just doesn’t want my maiden name to be any part of my name, I guess.
I must mention also that he is only 22. I am 24, and we met when he was 18 and I was 20. We’ve been exclusive ever since, and I think sometimes he feels like he missed out on the whole wild child days in college (that I had a chance to have). I think this is just is last attempt at asserting something possibly.
I know that problems in relationships often continue and that you can’t change a person. I know that there are some things I will just have to deal with, as does he. It doesn’t mean we can’t work on them. The other day I realized that we aren’t really “perfect for each other” - we really have to work at this and I don’t think either of us would be willing to do so if we didn’t have that base of true love. I also think that with age, some of these issues will begin to dissapate.
I’m writing a novel, but obviously I felt a need to explain myself. I truly appreciate the time you all have put into your responses. Thank you 
Andria
Andria,
I know that I am really late in responding to this, but I felt that everyone else was saying pretty much everything I wanted to say. However, based on what you recently posted, I feel that I must say something. I hope you read this and take it to heart. I have been a volunteer with PADV Atlanta for a while now and discussed your original question and subsequent follow up with a friend who works in the fields of social work and mental health. Both she and I are worried by what you have said.
Do you realize you are making excuses for him and his behavior? You said he has a history of blowing up over things you have done repeatedly or have not “corrected.” That the arguments escalate to the point of these blow ups. No one should EVER be that angry at someone for not doing the laundry; you should never feel as though you need to “correct” things for him. You can improve upon yourself, but the idea of “correcting” implies that you are doing something wrong. I’m sorry, but your letting the laundry pile up isn’t an action that needs to be corrected. It’s just something that everyone does from time to time (just an example, I know, but keep reading).
Question: Is the choice for using the word “correcting” something he says to you? Think about this for a minute. Does he say that you need to do things correctly? Meaning by his terms?
You fiance not wanting your maiden name anywhere in your name is a bit of a red flag to me as well. I’ve learned in my time volunteering that men who are going to be or have been controlling try to get a woman to cut all ties to her past. You interact a lot with your family now, but do you ever see or has he ever expressed issues with it? Could you see him having problems with this in the future?
Please read the following carefully.
Does/Is your fiance:
- Think poorly of himself and/or guard his masculinity by acting tough?
- Angry and/or threatening to the extent that you have changed you life so as not to anger him?
- Make you feel like you are unable to make decisions?
- Use intimidation or threats to gain compliance?
(note: threatening to not marry you b/c of a silly
name change situation - when you were
actually planning to take his name)
Do you:
- Sometimes feel scared of how your fiance will act?
- Constantly make excuses to other people for your fiance’s behavior? (note: that is EXACTLY what you did in comment #70)
- Believe that you can help your fiance change if only you changed something about yourself?
I don’t mean to call you out like this, but I am actually worried for you. I know he is young (as are you), but that doesn’t justify this. Please think seriously about the questions I posted above. Be honest with yourself. I would suggest that you both go to counseling - separately and together - about anything that alarms you. And if nothing alarms you, then look again. Something is definitely wrong here, and, as I said, that really worries me.
For more information, you can check out:
Partnership Against Domestic Violence
(located in Atlanta)
http://www.padv.org/
Safe Horizon (located in NYC) http://www.safehorizon.org/
If you (or anyone for that matter) need help or simply want an unemotionally involved sounding board who understands, please contact:
800-621-HOPE (in NYC) or
800-799-SAFE (outside NYC)
he will always hold that against you…the fact that he didn’t get to ‘party’…..the whole name thing was his way of trying to assert himself….you guys are still YOUNG….there are going to be so many more issues that are going to be way bigger deals than this….and being a realist, the younger people are when they get married nowadays, the harder it is for them to stay married…there is more of a likelihood that they will end up divorced…so make sure that he’s the one…and make sure he’s ready….because this is the rest of your life….good luck!
Andria,
I will preface by saying that you, only you, can know in your heart if this is really the right relationship for you (right for today and right forever).
Wow, now I am even more scared for you. This sounds like a situation that is likely to get worse rather than better after the wedding.
From your updated comments, I am not sure whether your fiance is ready for marriage, despite his love for you. As “s. star” said, if he resents it now that he never got to have the “crazy bachelor days,” that feeling will not go away as he gets older. It will get worse. I know men who are married with kids in their 30s and 40s and take out their lack of “crazy bachelor days” on their wives and kids by doing things that are against their marriage vows.
Combine that with yelling and alternating desires to control you and to say that he is giving into you (not real collaboration)… it sounds like a real opportunity for disaster.
Please get counseling, canceling or postponing a wedding is a good idea if you think you and your fiance are not in the right place in your relationship to make such a serious and permanent commitment. Being married will only make your problems worse, and will not fix any of the difficulties you describe.
You may want to read the national marriage survey to find out more about what factors go into a successful marriage: https://www.fatherhood.org/marriagesurvey.asp One of the factors is that the marriage starts when both parties are at age 25 or older, so it may be worth considering waiting a few years.
Please take care.
I’m appalled at his barbaric ultimatum. It worries me that this wasn’t a discussion rather a mandate, this doesn’t bode well for future serious compromises.
Secondly, he’s an idiot. The name on your marriage license is your full legal name NOW. Your new name doesn’t come into play until you do all the paperwork with the Social Security Admin and the DMV.
It is your decision, his input is nice and all, but if he puts his foot down over something like this, it’s probably better that you let him follow through and not marry you.
Barbaric is right. Is this 1952 or something? If he doesn’t have a well-articulated legitimate reason that this upsets him so much… then I think you’ve got bigger problems in your future than just this name issue.
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