Wedding Blog
I previously wrote about the marriage license laws that will be going into effect come September 1, 2008, in the state of Texas. However controversial the subject, come September 1, this will be important information for all Texas brides to know.
If the couple chooses to attend a 8-hour premarital class, there will be no waiting period on the marriage license (normally three days) and the fee will only be $12, as opposed to new, raised rate of $72. Today, I searched everywhere online to obtain more information on the rules as to what constitutes an official premarital class, as Mr. H and I already did a whole weekend of marriage prep through the Catholic church.
I’m still awaiting a response to find out whether or not our class is considered “valid” by the state. Otherwise Mr. H and I will have to decide whether or not it’s worth spending the extra money to take another prep class.
While I was more positive about this concept when I first read of it, knowing that the classes and time we put into our marriage prep this past year might not be accepted by the state, and the raised license rate if we choose not to take their course in addition to ours, is a little perturbing. I can understand the desire for couples to take a more active role in preparing for marriage, but this might be a little extreme.
If you are a Texas bride, you can get more information and find the contact information for your local Healthy Marriage Regional Intermediaries here, or you can contact your local county clerk’s office.
What do you think about this, and would you participate if this were offered in your state?
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That’s ridiculous. Most often than not, couples taking premarital classes do it through the church. Shouldn’t they have thought of that before bringing in the new requirements? As if your class isn’t “valid” …blurg!
I live in Texas and I’m getting married in April and this infuriates me! That rate is outrageous in a world of continually rising costs they want us to pay even more out of our pockets. If two people choose to get married then that’s their choice. It’s not the state’s responsibility to educate people on the responsibilities of marriage. These classes are not going to deter anyone from getting divorced down the road either. I’m fuming!
Florida has a similar program, but it doesn’t apply to couples from out of state marrying there. I really don’t see a problem with it, but I do think that your classes taken through your spiritual center should absolutely count towards it.
PS - Count your blessings, TX - the marriage license rate in FL is $93.50! In-state residents who have completed a marriage course can waive the normal three-day waiting period and are entitled to a discount that brings the cost to around $60, from what I can find. Out-of-state residents have no waiting period, but can not receive a discount for taking the course.
I’m with Miss Gardenia–it does seem like the state getting overly paternal and overly involved in what should be a decision between two people and, if applicable, their faith/church/officiant/etc. While I like the goal of getting people more prepared for marriage and I’m not opposed to the state offering some sort of civil course like that, I don’t like that it’s tied to a benefit, i.e. the reduced license fee.
I can see why the state might not accept a faith-based course though–if the state has goals for what the program is supposed to cover that aren’t approved of by a certain religion, it doesn’t really advance the state’s program. I’d *hope* the state would accept the course, but I can see the argument for why they wouldn’t.
Was this something that was voted on? Wow $72 is a steal it is $90 here in CA. It seems like this should only be if you are being married in the courthouse or by a judge somewhere else. Hopefully your classes will be ok.
Thanks for the info Miss Hydrangea! I’m getting married in Dallas in April. Please keep us posted!
Yeah, licenses are $60 in Oregon. So $72 doesn’t sound bad to me.
I am unfamiliar with this law. Interesting concept, but I have questions about the execution. (1) Most couples are already required (or strongly encouraged) to do prep classes through their religious organization - Do those sessions count? (2) There’s only a $60 difference in license fees, and I don’t know what marriage counseling costs in TX, but I bet it’s more than that. - Has the state arranged for counseling that meets requirements that cost $60 or less? (3) Couples for whom a $60 savings is important are also the couples who will be less able to pay out of pocket for counseling services - Are there scholarship funds to assist those who can’t pay for counseling?
In MN there is a similar program. I believe the thought process behind it is that couples who go through marital prep are less likely to divorce in comparison to couples who don’t.
Our marriage license in $110 w/o prep, and $40 with prep. We did the standard marriage retreat through our (Catholic) church, and it absolutely counts toward the state requirements. (In fact our church even uses the discount as an upside to going through the class.)
For me, it would really depend on what “counted” as premarital counseling. If the only options were church-based, we’d just pay the extra fee, because I would never ask FH to participate in counseling that didn’t jive with his personal beliefs. If there were secular alternatives, though, we’d definitely consider it!
We paid $68 here in WA. In answer to your question, we probably would not have taken the *state-sanctioned* class. First of all, a whole day of our time (8 hours x 2 = 16 hours) is worth way more than $60. And secondly, we spent more than that much time with our pastor over the six months prior to our wedding, in our apparently *non-state-sanctioned* pre-marital counseling. Which I would guess was perhaps worth more than a day-long class from the state as regards ensuring our readiness for marriage.
California licenses are $89, no options for discounts whatsoever.
I live in AZ, ours is $50, open without restrictions to out of state residents as well. The only catch is a certified copy is an extra 18 and you must apply in person. There is also something deemed a covenant license (which I don’t understand at all), which I believe is an additional 20. They changed the law to force people to apply in person so that there was no way a same sex couple could obtain a license. The upside… no blood tests, and you can be married the same day you apply (in case you are a ridiculously lame procrastinator, like me). There is no way any state could ethically obligate a couple to receive incentives to take a sanctioned course. It is just morally repugnant. What sort of rights does this leave couples who are outside faith norms or apparently state-recommended faiths?
I think its ridiculous and I am a Texas bride. Mr. Mims and I are both over 40 and have lived together for 3 years. I find it offensive that the State thinks it has the answer for a healthy marriage.
$60 savings for 8 hours of time investment doesn’t give us any value. Any dual income couple who earn more than $5.00 an hour, per person is better off just paying the difference.
That seems rediculous! In Missouri it’s $45, another $9 if you want a certified copy which you need to change your name. We discussed counseling simply to prepare us for marriage and decided on a book and workbook program that we both really enjoyed and I think was a great way to strengthen our relationship. I don’t understand where that $75 is going. I’d like to know more about where these ideas came up.
We have a similar law here in TN. We get a $60 discount on marriage licenses here if we do premarital counseling (it’s $99.50 before and goes down to $39.50). The requirements for the class here are: Taking a 4 hour course within the past year. A certification of completion must be completed by a certified course provider. These include Psychologist, Licensed Marital and Family Therapist, Professional Counselor, Official representative of a religious Institution, Clinical Social Worker, Clinical Pastoral Therapist, Psychological Examiner, or Any other instructor approved for the judicial district.
Our officiant provides an online course for us to do in our free time. Then we just have to answer a questionnaire he provides to show we did the course for at least 4 hours and he gives us the certificate.
Im with CarolineG in Florida. So the concept doesn’t annoy me and the price is cheaper than ours. Do I think its over reaching? Yes. But as others have already said, it doesn’t seem like the worst idea ever for those who just show up at the courthouse… but then where do you draw the line? So I understand that in an attempt to not have Vegas style morning after divorces they just made it a blanket rule. And at least in Florida, almost all religious meetings count.
I’m in Texas, and what ever happened to a marriage license costing $25.00!? This is crazy to charge $72 dollars. I work at a law firm, and i’m definitely going to ask my attorney to look into it for me. How nuts! But it better include church premarital classes, before we have to do an 8 hour one in order to get married at a certain church.
From a public health standpoint, I think this is a great idea. Studies have shown that pre-marital counseling decreases divorce rates. This shows that your state wants marriages there to succeed.
I do, however, hope that your religiously based course counts toward this. I would understand though if they wanted you to get a curriculum that has an evidence base of success.
Personally, I don’t think religious counseling should count. I know its not a popular stance, but it seems to be a blurring of the line between church and state.
If they ok pastoral counseling for the major religions, will they give the same credit to more unusual religions? What about atheists and agnostics, will they have to pay for the more expensive private counseling options?
It just seems like its ripe for confusion, litigation, etc. If the state offered a secular program at no cost, then I could maybe get on board. As it is, I see it as being divisive.
Wow- I didn’t realize how lucky I was! In Maryland the license is $35 and you don’t have to do anything- you don’t even have to apply in person.
I think the premarital counseling is actually a good idea, as long as they have enough alternatives and they’re all the same price. It might just help the divorce rate a little bit. Often premarital counseling just helps you think about things you hadn’t considered before. Also, churches need to adjust and not require courses that aren’t accepted.
Wow. This just highlights how interventionist the state is in regulating marriages. I’d be interested in knowing which courses “count” and which do not. Sounds like a legal challenge waiting to happen . . . .
I had to pay $125.00 for mine regardless of prep classes or not, so it doesn’t seem that bad to me.
I’m with Jamie - it doesn’t sound too bad to me. Mine is $135, no if’s and’s or but’s
Wow. It’s only $20 to get a license in Vermont, no waiting period, no classes, nothing. And only 1 person actually has to sign it in the presence of the town clerk.
@Jay: I completely agree. It’s unseemly that they would tie a state-run program to a monetary incentive without allowing any type of pre-marital counseling to this incentive.
Miss Hydrangea, any idea where the increased cost goes? Are they just pocketing it or does it go to like domestic violence or something (where I know a portion of my FI’s tickets go? =/ )?
this might be the one thing that is cheaper in NYC - $35! And all you need is 2 people, 2 government identifications and a credit card and you can be married 24 hours later!
(although changing my middle name to my maiden name has cost me $95….so far!)
In Georgia the license is $57 without counseling and $22 with it. I really support having a discount for people who do premarital counseling. I don’t think the state is overstepping church-state division in providing financial incentives for something that is proven to help marriages. It would be overstepping if the state required it for everyone, or made the cost of a license without counseling prohibitive, or if the state allowed only its own programs to count. But it doesn’t (at least not in GA).
In GA the requirements for a qualifying premarital program are pretty loose—-it must be conducted by a therapist/psychologist/psychiatrist/social worker/counselor or pastor/priest. It must cover the topics of “children, finances, conflict management, communication skills, financial responsibilities, child and parenting responsibilities, and extended family roles.”
However, I think the counseling has to be completed in Georgia, and since we did ours in Maryland, we still had to pay the full price. We did an (expensive) retreat weekend with the Catholic church, and had it been in GA it absolutely would have counted—and I would have appreciated saving $40. So Miss Hydrangea, I think your program should absolutely count and should save you some money!
Its only $35 in IA (but most likely it will go up at some point before my wedding). I’m happy I talked Fi out of moving to TX and getting married there instead.
We live in Texas but the wedding is in CA, but this does concern us a little just for the general state of the state.
I wonder what their motivation is? It must have to do with revenue, right?
Having just emailed the local representative for this program, I received the following information:
Outside (religious or secular) classes will not count towards the requirement - the class is government-run and the only one that counts against the fee.
It is a minimum of eight hours.
Since I’m going through premarital counseling at my university, I am going to say ’screw it’ and pay the fee. It’s not worth eight extra hours to go through the same things we just covered to waive $60.
@Katherine: Thanks for sharing! My rep never even got back to me. Now, knowing this, I’m going to just pay the $72 and forget their program.
Wow; it seems this has created quite a commotion with every one. Let me give you some details on this Twogether in Texas Program. Katherine I hope you read this and that representative needs to read this as well. In 2007 House Bill 2683 was passed taking money from TANIF to promote Healthy Marriages. Out of this came House Bill 2685 this is what has become the fuss. This does raise the rate of a marriage license to $60 and a county can not charge you more than $72 and the least being $61. It is the county that adds this additional fee and each is different in this regard. If you complete a course that is 8 hours long, focuses on communication, conflict management, teaches key components of a successful marriage, is skills and researched based. The provider will supply you with an authentic certificate that you will then provide to your local county clerk to obtain a reduced fee of $60 on your marriage license. Mind you this course is free to any one in Texas and if you would take this on your own it would cost about $300-$600 dollars. Faith Based can teach a class and supply a certificate to the couples upon completion. This is all up to your church if they want to be part of the program. If a church is teaching a curriculum on their own they simply have to contact their local RI and let them know what curriculum they use and once this is approved they will be able to print certificates for couples. If a Faith Base does not have a curriculum, they can contact the RI and asked to be trained at no charge to teach a curriculum. If a Faith Base charges you to take a course then they still can be part of this program if they teach the curriculum prior to charging for the faith based portion. Please contact your local RI to obtain more information on this, but any one can take this course. This is not only to cut the rate of divorce, but the focus is on the children. Hey as a tax payer I would love to see divorce go down and families stay Twogether in Texas.
Just an FYI, I am a project manager with one of the agencies charged with carrying out this program, and you must have missed the fact that the classes that qualify you to have the fee waived are FREE to the public and must be according to legislation. So if you’ve got a beef about being offered a FREE class that is research based and offers you the skills to make sure you’re marrying the right person for the right reasons and can stay married, then maybe you shouldn’t get married in the first place. 
@Jacob: Jacob, Thank you for further explaining the program and clearing up some of the questions that my fellow bees have regarding this new legislation. I can appreciate the attempts by the state to have those entering into this lifelong commitment take it seriously.
@Doug M: Doug, I appreciate your passion for what you do. For those of us Texas brides who have been engaged for well over a year and attended marriage courses through the church (which, in my case, dealt more with having a healthy marriage then anything to do with religion), it would have been nice to have had a more public campaign for the new legislation that would effect those of us brides getting married within days of the September 1, 2008, initiation. I am sorry that you think that we shouldn’t be getting married to our future spouses because we haven’t completed the course, when many of us have taken more steps then most by even attending the courses offered to us by our churches, if not elsewhere. I hope that you can use this forum in a positive manner to help your cause and explain the new laws rather then to degrade those of us who are being very proactive in our attempts to achieve a healthy and happy marriage.
Ugh. I know the class isn’t required for the license, but it still leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I have to agree with Mimsy on this one.
I just wanted to respond to Doug’s response and something that I hope will help you. Please notify your church and ask them to become a part of the Twogether in Texas program so that they can print you a certificate to receive $60 off the marriage license even if you took it before Sept 1. This goes for every one who has taken a class and did not receive a certificate. Doug you’re very passionate, but let’s get the word out in a positive way. More negativity puts people on the defensive and this is what we don’t want. Please contact your local RI if they can’t help you call the other RI’s.
Just to clarify, I have talked with my minister and am going through premarital counseling already. It is free through our university and all parties involved are satisfied that we will cover topics necessary to ensure a successful start to marriage.
I have been told I need to take a minimum eight-hour ‘educational class’ on top of the counseling I will already be doing in order to waive this fee. I have no expectation that my counseling will ‘count’ under these new requirements, and will be paying the extra fee for something I consider a nuisance and quite honestly, a meddlesome interference by the state in something that should be my business to conduct as I see fit.
In Tennessee there is a similar reduction in price if you complete marriage counseling. If you do it with a licensed clergy member or therapist, it counts. I don’t know why it wouldn’t count for you too.
@ Miss Hydrangea - TwoGether in Texas is taking a proactive approach to get the word out there and educate engaged couples about the new laws and courses (I would know, I’ve been hired to do a lot of web/print work for their programs! And have been working on design projects since this past May). You can go to http://www.anthemnorthtexas.org and learn a bit more about the projects and the efforts of organizations striving to get the word out there as quickly as possible. You’ll also find a good resource for community programs and free workshops you can attend that promote healthy marriages and family lives. TwoGether in Texas is not trying to punish couples by forcing this program, but adding an incentive for couples to not only attend classes, but to acknowledge that by attending classes you are recognizing the need to take a proactive approach toward your relationships. I had to pay $72 in March for my license, and had a reduced fee been an option I would have most certainly taken the course. As I still plan on doing, as it’s free! And I understand why this new rule can come off as intrusive and annoying, but I would recommend learning all the facts before posting on such a public forum, a negative opinion post based on partial facts and information can negatively influence couples who could actually benefit from free training and guidance.
I think its a great idea. Alot of people jump into marriage without knowing what they are getting into. This will at least help couples learn more about themselves and hopefully less likely to get a divorce.
Hi,
I was wondering if you ever found out if your prep course through the Catholic Church counts as a class? We just completed the FOCCUS class this past weekend and are hoping that counts. Any information is appreciated!
Thanks,
EM
@Erica: We had our final meeting with the priest last week and it was the first he’d heard of it. I would contact your local Diocese to see if they have had the coursework approved or not. Hope this helps!
I dont understand some people. I guess you can not please everyone; and not everyone will be open to any thing that just might make a difference in their life or save what just might be the best thing that happened to them “their marriage”. Life it hard enough and what is good and great now may not always be in the future. If these classes give the couples the tools /the knowledge they need if and when they will know what to do and how to handle a situation.
Religious institutions have to provide the state require instruction; plus yes, there might be some scripture reading but it all has to do with the topic and does not take any more or less time if it was not included.
The voucher is for $60.00 towards your license. So depending where you are at you would pay the difference. Here in Hidalgo Co. it would be $12.00…… my goodness you pay more for having your nails fixed.
Retreats are required anyway if you are getting married in the Catholic Church, so in the long run you are getting a break.
Erica, the retreats in the Diocese of Brownsville will count….. at this time they are waiting to be approved. But I think also the question needs to be
“Whether or not they will except they will retroact and give credit to those retreat attended before September 01, 2008″
My fellow and I just took the Twogether in Texas program in Austin at the Lutheran Social Services and it was great! The class was free, and there were even some wonderful free snacks and lunches from Jason’s Deli. I was very impressed.
They kept the class interesting and it was pretty non-denominational, which was great because we’re not Christians. Most of the class was about learning better communication, managing arguments, and common marraige pitfalls. Good stuff! There were no unrealistic expectations of marraige being perfect at all times, while still being very optimistic that getting married is the way to go.
By the way, we’ve been living together for almost a year and still found it to be a very good class, even though we already have a lot of the basic stuff down. Plenty of people there were already living together/had children/been married before/etc. It’s not just for newbies, I mean. I highly recommend it.
Me and my fiance finished up the twogether in texas marriage education. We were shown tools to use. It’s pretty much just like Rachael previously described. It’s definitely a great idea and an awesome opportunity to be able to use these tools.
It is non-denominational, and also the class is free! We took the two seperate days. It was definitely very helpful to us.
They also have other types of classes not just for pre-marital/engaged couples.
You know what really concerns me about the people who have responded in a negative tone is the lack of knowledge. Your right, it’s not the states responsibility to educate you on healthy marriage and you are right the state itself can not prevent or lower divorce, however it is the responsibility of the community and YOU to educate and prevent divorce. And guess what? The state is giving Faith Based Organizations, Licensed Counselors, and any individual willing to educate the opportunity to do so. It already has a three to four page list of curriculum/classes that are already taught in Faith Based Organizations/Churches and it is not an issue of Validity, however are you receiving the skills you need to build a healthy marriage. Which are healthy marriage skills (finances, parenting, etc.) communication, and conflict resolution. You know the stuff you probably didn’t learn from your parents or your first marriage. So, for the state to give all these opportunities and 90% of the people teaching the classes do it for FREE, I believe it is worth “loooking” into. Don’t you? Again, people parish for the lack of knowlege, why don’t you go to Twogetherintexas.com type in your zip code and find out where you can’t get info or do like I did and call 1-877-LUV-LASTS and ask questions.
I don’t understand why people are so against this!
1. The state isn’t “parenting” you, you have a CHOICE.
2. Nearly all of the classes are FREE. Yes, FREE. There is a huge selection here in the DFW area, I found five classes in my medium-sized town and they offered many convenient times.
3. $60 is substantial considering the classes aren’t being held 9-5, but on nights and weekends. So I had to replace relaxation time with eight hours of class, big whoop. I didn’t do it just for the fee reduction, but that ANY tools they could give us could be helpful.
So what’s the big deal? If you have a problem with your state offering guidance and a fee reduction at NO COST to you, then DON’T DO IT.
That’s the bottom line. It has helped a lot of us out.
The program I attended was actually a lot of fun. The pastor was a former sociology professor who had taught a marriage & family class at the local community college years back. He really knew his stuff. They started out giving us snacks, interesting statistics, and then class really began. It was divided up into three days - Monday night for two hours, Wednesday night for two hours, and Saturday for four. Saturday was catered as well.
I was worried because it was held at a Baptist church but even though I’m Buddhist and my fiance is non-religious, we learned a thing or two and religion was hardly mentioned. We have been living together for two years and, like the poster above, still benefited from having taken this course.
Im getting married and texas and honestly dont see what the big deal is, the twogether in teas workshop is free to whoever wants to take it and and drops the license fee down to $12 not to mention wipes away the 72 hrs of waiting, as long as ur church thing was recognized by the states program, there shouldnt be a problem. the classes r only on sat and r from 8:30 to 5:50. why not?
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Mrs. Hydrangea, Dallas
Age and Occupation: 26, Administrative Assistant
Fiance's Age and Occupation: 27, Network Analyst
Engagement Date: June 2007
Wedding Date: September 2008
Blogging Since: January 14, 2008
Venue: Catholic Church and Reception at The W Hotel
About Me: Mr. H and I come from very different cultures and backgrounds so I'm excited to plan our wedding with a balance of both traditions. My mom has always been a DIY queen, and I'm just now starting to get into it with a new house and a wedding to plan!
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