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Miss Snapdragon, Chicago/Dallas Age and Occupation: 32,Associate Producer Fiance's Age and Occupation: 33, Lighting Designer Blogging Since: November 14, 2008 Engagement Date: January 1, 2011 Wedding Date: March 2012 Venue: Marie Gabrielle About Me: Voracious reader of short stories, Russian literature, National Geographic and Cosmo. I'm a GENIUS at spicing up Weight Watchers recipes and a pathological cheater at board games. I run a slow marathon, but my feet are learning to move faster. Mornings aren't my thing, but I can night owl with the best of them. Don't tempt me with your Cherry Cokes---I'm trying to quit. Tomorrow. Or never.
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The Things We Remember

December 13th, 2008 @ 11:56 am by Miss Snapdragon

The Things We Remember :  wedding Photosh
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I have been chewing on this post for awhile. I kept starting and dropping and re-writing, never completely sure how to write about this subject. I just can’t stop thinking about it!

A few weeks ago, Mr. Dragon and I went out with a few people that Mr. Dragon wanted me to get to know better (they’re old, old friends of his.) I was really excited to hang out with them. We went to a casual restaurant and wore our comfy jeans, which is actually my favorite thing to do - low-maintenance night out. Because [when you’re engaged] everyone asks you about your wedding, talk turned to how excited we were for our circles of friends and family to finally meet. As we all know, I have a somewhat unusual family, as well as other friends that remarkably sheltered peeps might also label “unusual.” To me, they are my friends, and that’s it - I don’t identify them by their lifestyle, appearance, etc.

I have to be vague so that certain people aren’t incriminated and also so others aren’t embarrassed.

Anyway, when these particular friends of mine came up in discussing our wedding guest list…. the people we were dining with got really crass. Names, dirty jokes, etc. I got really upset once I was over the shock of what was going on. Just because someone is supposedly “different” doesn’t make it ok to call them names, belittle them, or reduce them to a joke. I was so taken aback that I was speechless. I am ashamed to say that I was like a deer in headlights. I didn’t want to castigate our dinner partners and “create a scene,” and since they are Mr. Dragon’s old friends I was just basically unsure of what to do. I just stopped talking and prayed to God for them to stop.

For the rest of dinner, I faked my way through it and hoped it would be over soon. I like - liked - these people a lot, and I was confused as to why they thought, as grown adults, it was acceptable to make fun of people they didn’t even know, in such a brutal way. I pretended to be sick, we were able to leave, and I cried all the way home, completely ashamed of myself for not putting a stop to it in the moment.

If I could uninvite them from the wedding, I would, but as Mr. Dragon points out: “They were being ignorant, and we already sent them a Save the Date.” Oh, Mr. Dragon, you’re funny. :)

Here’s what I am worried about… I am extremely proud that I have such a diverse set of friends and family members. Because I know how people treat people with disabilities (either as saints, which is totally annoying - or that they are invisible - or just straight up mean) and also because I am sensitive to adoption issues, child abuse, etc. I do my best to avoid making people feel worthless. This may sound obvious, but… you’d be surprised how many people feel totally fine saying the craziest things to others they think are “less worthy.” I just don’t make fun of other people’s lifestyles or beliefs - I just don’t. It does nothing but cause hurt, and that’s LAME.

The reason I bring this story up is because so many of our wedding guests are from a variety of backgrounds, lifestyles, what have you… I am now scared that a few of our “mainstream” guests are going to make others feel uncomfortable. I was a bit scared about it before, but now I see my concerns are valid, unfortunately. Didn’t they go to kindergarten? That’s where you learn that if “You don’t have something nice to say, don’t say anything at all!”

This is a bit of a conundrum. I know this sounds weird, but I am kind of hoping to see these particular old friends of Mr. Dragon’s again before the wedding. I REALLY hope they start saying the ignorant and hurtful things they said before because this time, I am going to [kindly] set them straight. This way, they’ll only have said those mean things to ME and not to my wedding guests, who I love dearly. They will have been “schooled,” if you will.

It’s a pickle. Is it just me, or are other brides strategizing about how to protect some of their wedding guests, too? Are you a bit nervewracked? This is something that is out of our control!

*I realize that this post was quite fuzzy on the details - hopefully the point still came across. :)

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42 Responses to “The Things We Remember”

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1.
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Mrs. Avocado (message)  1,543 posts, Bumble bee

*To other commenters. I do not leave this comment in an attempt to stir up a ridiculous debate about LDS beliefs towards LGBT lifestyles. Just leave it alone okay? Let me be.

I was worried about the same thing Snappy. One of Mr. Avo’s groomsmen is homosexual, and brought his partner with him up for the wedding weekend. Let’s just say that all of the conservative LDS guests I invited do NOT have a lot of exposure to the LGBT community and I didn’t know how they would react. The story gets even more complicated when you factor in that this particular groomsmen used to be a part of the LDS community himself (served a mission and everything) and did not part with it on great terms. My father has a particularly hard time dealing with anything related to LGBT issues.

I don’t know if it helped, but I talked openly and candidly with my bridesmaids and my parents before the wedding. I told them that this groomsmen was a very good friend of Mr. Avo’s and I was worried about how people would react. It’s hard to judge when you are the busy bride, but I believe that everything went well for them that weekend. I was very pleased to see my dad laughing and joking with them both after the harbor cruise on Friday, and there didn’t seem to be any problems of exclusion or judgment throughout the day on Saturday.

Your situation is a little bit different because from your post it sounds like your friends/family are different in ways that are very obvious to the casual observer (many of my guests probably didn’t even know that this groomsmen and his “friend” were partners). But, do you think it would work to talk candidly about this issue with a few close friends/family who can help you keep things under control on the wedding day and go out of their way to make sure that ALL of your guests have a wonderful time?

 
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Deborah

I’m a little confused on why you used the word “lame” the way you did after just getting done talking about the insulting things your dinner companions were saying. I think it is extremely hurtful to use words like “gay,” “lame,” or “retarded” in our speech as insults.

 
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Miss Snapdragon (message)  717 posts, Busy bee

@Mrs. Avocado: That’s a good idea. I am not worried about most of our guests. On my side, most of the guests are old friends that are totally comfortable with each other. I almost think that being crass and going as far as our dinner companions went with their jokes comes from being uncomfortable (or at least I hope so.) I know they aren’t bad people, but it’s still really traumatizing and I don’t want anybody to get hurt, as much as it is preventable. I am glad somebody has been through this before and can help me out. :)
@Deborah: I didn’t use the words “gay” or “retarded.” To me, words that are used to make someone feel small are no-gos, so those are my standards. Our dinner [one-way] conversation went way beyond, however. I’m sorry you were offended. :)

 
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Deborah

I know you didn’t use the words “gay” or “retarded” in your post, but it is just interesting to me that you think those words are not ok to use, but you did use the word “lame,” which is just as bad, especially since you alluded to friends who have disabilities.

 
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HL

I hope this isn’t out of line, Miss SD, but if I were you I’d be pretty furious at Mr. Dragon as well as at his friends. While you would have been well within your rights to say something to them at dinner, they’re his friends and therefore it was his job to put an end to the hurtful conversation, full stop. Because the details are fuzzy, I’m sorry if I’m making an unfair assumption…but I know that if my FI knew I was hurt and appalled by the subject of conversation and didn’t try to stop it, I’d be very, very upset with him, as well.

Secondly, who the hell are these people? They knew they were talking about your wedding guests (who they presumably realized are close to you, since I don’t know many people who invite guests they dislike to their weddings) and they STILL engaged in name calling, dirty jokes, and ridicule? These people sound toxic and if they were my “friends,” I’d always wonder if they said similarly awful things about me when I wasn’t around. Save-the-date etiquette be damned, people like that wouldn’t have any place at my wedding.

 
6.
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HL

(or, I should add, in the rest of my life either)

 
7.
EAQ219
Member
EAQ219 (message)  1,448 posts, Bumble bee

I think this is a very appropriate and important topic to bring up on here. One of our groomsmen is my best friend and also gay. I’m not sure if my fiance’s side of the family (not necessarily his parents, but aunts/uncles/grandparents), who are more traditional/conservative, will have an issue with it or not. I suspect if it comes up before the wedding I will politely but firmly express how much I love my friend and how I couldn’t imagine my day without him there. I’ve found that saying things in a direct way and with a smile make it hard for the opposing side to argue too much. Plus, unless you want to get into a loonnnggg conversation, their opinion might never change.

I know it seems like the “easy” thing to do is to not send them formal invitations. If they really have THAT much of an issue with people who are different than them, they wont come anyway. Hopefully, they will see past it, recognize that they are attending an event meant to celebrate you and your husband-to-be, and get the hell over it. I would like to think that those who are different that us (gay/disabled/etc/) are a lot stronger than most of us think. In other words, they have probably heard it all before and are prepared to deal with it accordingly.

Please don’t focus too much energy on this. Just call up your friends/relatives with varying lifestyles/appearances and tell them how much you love them.

 
8.
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nowmrswhite

Dear Snappy, wow–what an aggravating situation!!!

We had a less-awkward situation, in that we had only one or two guests who require a little extra graciousness and patience, but it was still a worry in my mind. We put them at a table with people who knew them, knew of their personalities, or were really really super-kind and forgiving people. So, if these insensitive people do come to the wedding, I recommend putting them in a similar buffered sort of place, so as to avoid unpleasantries with your wonderful family.

The other thing is, I think (and hope) that being around your friends and family will open their eyes to their own immaturity, as they see how people with disabilities are functional and capable and oftentimes remarkable human beings.

 
9.
emmeeay-L
Member
emmeeay-L (message)  104 posts, Blushing bee

This was a very brave post by Miss Snapdragon and it bothers me that within the first 2 posts she was already pounced on. And after she apologizes it repeated. Miss Snapdragon’s post could have easily been about flowers or favors but she opened herself up and (in my opinion that raises the depth of Weddingbee) the tone of the early posts disappointed me (and that Mrs Avacado had to first ask that people don’t pounce on her too). Please let’s support the bees when they posts with topics such as this.

 
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nowmrswhite

hmm… HL makes a good point in terms of going back on Save the Date etiquette for this kind of reason. This is righteous anger, so I think you’d have a right to change the ‘rules’ if it’s truly going to be over-stressful. The last thing you need to worry about is people getting along.

(by the way, the people whose personalities needed extra patience and graciousness weren’t people who could be dropped from our list, as they were relatives).

 
11.
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Bee
Miss Snapdragon (message)  717 posts, Busy bee

@HL: Well, since I had to be so fuzzy on the details, I know it’s hard to help me with this! Thankfully, his friends don’t know about my family, in which case, the whole thing would have been especially hard to take (although I also may have not had “deer-in-headlights syndrome!”) I am not mad at Mr. Dragon. I think when you grow up in a family like mine that is mostly made up of people with disabilities or that is - let’s be honest - vulnerable to cruel jokes, you are a lot more sensitive to jokes that make people feel bad. I spotted what was going on right away, while Mr. Dragon didn’t catch on til it was too late. They’re old buds of his, so he is used to the way they talk - I am not. He totally agrees with me though, and I know he was just doing his best. It was a difficult situation and I don’t fault anybody for the way they reacted. One thing Mr. Dragon has taught me is that when your friends mess up, you don’t cut them out of your life, you talk it out. We all make BIG mistakes sometimes (I definitely do!) and I realize that this is just an area where they have a lot of growing to do (if they want to - I’m not their boss.) I totally understand your comment, but I think it’ll just be a speed bump we need to work through, instead of a friendship killer.
@emmeeay-L: Thank you. :)

 
12.
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Jess

You brought up a very important post that gives us something to think about.
I don’t blame you for being upset, it IS hurtful! They were talking about people you care about to be funny, and it obviously wasn’t!

I’ll give Miss Snapdragon the benefit of the doubt here. She probably didn’t know where the word came from because frankly, I didn’t either. I didn’t know that “lame” was a word to describe a person’s condition. I’ve always known is as slang to describe an undesirable situation or, hell, even a person, but not in a disabled context. The fact that Miss Snapdragon is going out of her way to express her distaste for the situation is telling me that she is sensitive to others and in no way meant to offend anyone with a single word.

 
13.
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LC

I completely agree with HL - it is Mr. Snapdragon’s job to set these people straight, not yours. It might be really satisfying for you to dress them down yourself, but they seem like the kind of people who might just brush you off. Mr. Snapdragon knows how upset you were by his friends’ behavior, he should show you the love and support of being on your side and standing up to his friends. And if it comes to that point, Save The Date etiquette goes out the window; there are just some types of behavior and language you don’t need surrounding you on such a special, intimate day as your wedding.

 
14.
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Summer

The thing about weddings is it pushes people, and groups of people, together with completely differing lives and opinions. While I’m unsure of the depth of your friends “differences” from these other “normal” people, I know I’m going to be having various sets of people at my wedding, including my tattoed and pierced friends, and my fiances ultra conservative grandmother. I just plan on seating them away from eachother, and hoping for the best.

Now, I don’t know the depth of your situation, but one thing is for sure. These people, if they do have the gall to say something, probably won’t say anything your friends haven’t heard before. If Mr. Snappy is set on inviting these people to the wedding, I would ask him to talk to them about their behavior, and I would talk to your friends, just so they are aware of the situation, and can prepare themselves, if, god forbid, his friend feel it necessary to be cruel and make comments. Hopefully your friends can then be more adult than the others, and even though they shouldn’t have to, can be prepared to ignore it and walk away, and hopefully not let it ruin their evening.

It is an icky situation, and i wish the two of you all the best, and hope everyone can be happy and nice on such a joyous occasion.

 
15.
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LNickle

I’m a little confused by your post. I understand how awful it must be to be in such an uncomfortable situation, as well as the desire to “school” them about what they’re saying. What I’m confused about is how (in your comment) you say that Mr. Snappy didn’t catch on? If these were such offensive and dirty jokes, wouldn’t they be readily apparent? Obviously, the details are fuzzy, so it’s hard to know, but I guess I’m just saying that if even your fiance didn’t pick up on it, maybe these other friends really do just need to be “educated” that what they’re saying is crass and mean. Perhaps, they were just being ignorant more than being intentionally mean?

(I totally don’t mean for this post to sound mean at all myself, I’m just inquriing. I just try to give people the benefit of the doubt, and sometimes when you feel so passionately about something or someone is talking about people you love, you can be more sensitive to the issue … ie it’s harder to look at it objectively. If this isn’t the case, then I apologize if I offended you Ms. Snappy!!).

 
16.
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gg+sb

First of all I’m so very sorry that any of us are placed in situations like this….I wish people in general could all focus on the Kindergarten lesson of “saying something nice” and “just all getting along”.

We are in a similar situation. Sadly there are members of my family who are very narrow minded in terms of anything they deem “different”. They are all from small towns in the rural south, and are often very vocal about their viewpoints. I am often looked on as the “outsider” because I don’t share their viewpoints (even though I grew up being fed them). We are both concerned that everyone play nicely in our wedding sandbox. We’ve even opted to have our wedding somewhere local to us instead of near my hometown. It’s hard….on one hand I’d like to assume they are all adults and will treat my friends as people who I love….on the other I’ve known them long enough to know better.

For the past year I’ve been working this into various conversations so they know ahead of time it isn’t acceptable. Yet, I’m still concerned what they will say when face to face with our friends of different nationalities/skin colors/orientations/etc. and it both angers and saddens me. There are actually a few family members that may not attend due to both this and the fact we will serve beer & wine at our reception. It’s really hard…and I’m so sorry that you might be in a similar situation

 
17.
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Jo

I realize this is getting into the realm of nitpicky, but maybe this will clarify for Deborah. The word “gay” especially has no negative meaning until you give it one. However the word “lame” implies a weaker, broken, or otherwise affected part of the body - or of the argument, behavior, etc. It might not be the most sensitive use of language, but linguistically it’s defendable.

As for the wedding itself, Miss Snappy, I love Mrs. Avacado’s method of appointing a few close friends, family members, or wedding party members to “shepherd” your guests, if you don’t have the opportunity to confront these friends directly. At my wedding, my husband’s brothers threatened to push my dad (who uses two canes to walk at this point) down a set of stairs. Had I anticipated that sort of behavior (even from 12 year olds who might not understand the effects of their jokes), I would have spoken with their mother about keeping them in line. I was not pleased.

I hope you get your situation sorted!

 
18.
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jennred782

With your family being so diverse maybe there is some sort of way to incorporate that into your wedding program. Such as explaining how diverse your family is. Or making your favors a donation to a charity or an agency close to your family. In the end your guests that these individuals were making fun of out number them. They are going to be the ones who look stupid if they make comments.

Another option is to ask Mr. Dragon to talk to these friends of his. If they are good friends this shouldn’t be a problem. HTH.

 
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ThickChick

Man, that stinks!

I don’t think you need to worry about your ‘mainstream’ guests, as most people don’t make ignorant statements! The couple that made the ridiculous remarks are NOT mainstream.

In any case, I definitely think Mr. Snapdragon should send an email or make a phone call and say something to the effect of “It was great seeing you the other night, my fiancee enjoyed meeting you, etc….however we both found your comments about so-and-so rather insensitive. I would hope that you didn’t mean these things and that regardless of your views you’ll be polite and tolerant of all of our cherished and diverse wedding guests.”

The above *is* far too gentle (especially for my west-coast liberal beliefs!), however, it seems that it would be enough to embarrass these people into good behavior.

 
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Melissa B.

Miss Snappy, how awkward! I’m sure Mr. Dragon’s friends didn’t mean to upset you — if you watch too much “Family Guy” or hang out at too many frat parties, you can start to get the idea that it’s OK to mock people or say offensive things as long as it’s “just a joke.” But it’s really not OK at all. Saying something like “those are my friends you’re talking about, I don’t think that’s funny” in an even, reasonable voice can go a long way towards getting people to knock it off and think about how they’re coming across.

 
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Miss Snapdragon
Miss Snapdragon

Miss Snapdragon, Chicago/Dallas Age and Occupation: 32,Associate Producer Fiance's Age and Occupation: 33, Lighting Designer Blogging Since: November 14, 2008 Engagement Date: January 1, 2011 Wedding Date: March 2012 Venue: Marie Gabrielle About Me: Voracious reader of short stories, Russian literature, National Geographic and Cosmo. I'm a GENIUS at spicing up Weight Watchers recipes and a pathological cheater at board games. I run a slow marathon, but my feet are learning to move faster. Mornings aren't my thing, but I can night owl with the best of them. Don't tempt me with your Cherry Cokes---I'm trying to quit. Tomorrow. Or never.

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