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I have had some great experiences living in Tokyo. I have many international friends because this is a very international city.
So here I was on a Saturday night at a summer fireworks festival with a handful of new Chinese friends, a German guy, and some Japanese women. We are all sitting on the floor in someone’s living room, grubbing on yummy Japanese food and downing beers and chu-his (alco-pops). Mr. Glasses wasn’t there, so I showed everyone a picture of him—it happened to be one of our engagement pictures. I explained the concept of engagement pictures and showed them our online album on my iPhone. This led to a discussion about the traditions of marriage in our respective cultures. Then the German guy piped up:
“I’ve been with my girlfriend for 11 years, and I’m never going to propose.”
In a room full of five girls and two guys, this did not go over well. As the only married woman in the room, I had to ask why. His response:
“Because you’ve been living together for over six years already. What would change with a piece of paper?”
“But…it’s not just a piece of paper…it’s a commitment, a promise to one another,” I sputtered.
“You would not be committed to your partner, you would not promise to love your partner without that piece of paper? You don’t trust him to stay committed to you without the paper?” he asked, in a thick German accent.
I fired back, “Well, of course I trust him but…I mean, it’s not just that. We are having a ceremony in front of our family and friends and standing there saying ‘to have and to hold until death do us part’! In a lot of cases, people also make that promise before God or whatever their religion may be!”
He admitted, “I’m sure my girlfriend would love the attention of that, and I know she wants to have a ceremony and a party. But it is a pain in the ass to me, and I would never do it.”
“What about the financial commitment you are making to each other with that piece of paper? Divorce isn’t easy, and perhaps if you are married you would think twice about giving up on your sacred relationship if you had some trouble?” I was really trying to get him to see my side.
“In Germany, if you have a baby but you’re not married, you are still responsible for that child and have to pay child support regardless of marriage. Otherwise, if you have no baby and your husband wants to leave you he will leave you, just like if he was just your boyfriend. So what is the point of getting marriaged?” He smiled at me smugly.
Before this, I had never given any thought to people who have lived together, loved each other, and DIDN’T want to get married. While I completely respect the position, I have been a bit sheltered in our world of tulle and linen. However, at that moment, I resisted the urge to turn to my friends who were listening to us point and counterpoint for a good 10 minutes and explain to them in my terrible Japanese, “Gyunyuwa tada dakara ushiwo kawanakutemoii.” Or, “The milk is free so it’s OK to not buy the cow.” The German couldn’t understand Japanese.
That was basically this guy’s mentality. It’s certainly interesting to hear other points of view, and I totally listened to his, but I really could not stop thinking about his girlfriend back in Germany who has been faithfully waiting for over a decade.
I went home and hugged Mr. Glasses for about an hour. Mr. Glasses and I moved in together way before he proposed. What if he had been happy just living together because he didn’t see how things would change if we got married? I told him, “Thank you for buying this cow!”
He smiled at me and said, “I’ll love you forever. I’ll tell the whole world. Well, I’ll at least stand up in front of our family and friends and tell them. Even if it is a pain in the ass.”
So. This is going to be a pretty one-sided discussion, but…Discuss! What would you have said if you were in my place, bantering with a half-drunk German guy on a balmy Tokyo summer night?
I would enlighten him to the fact that sans marriage, she is legally allowed to sleep around or move out of their house at any time with no financial burdens to her. And whether he wants to believe it or not, in a civilized society (Germany included) people take you more seriously if you have a ring on your finger because of the commitment you made and vowed to make for the rest of your life. You are stable.
I was Mr German once - I didn’t want to get married. I didn’t and don’t have a solid marriage that I am exposed to (my parents have been married 36 yrs but it hasn’t always been sheer joy) and as a result I swore up and down it was something I never wanted to do. I will have kids and always be loyal but please no marriage/wedding. Then I met FH - - and what I realized is that I am a personal, intimate, quiet type of person who doesn’t want to any spotlight and/or to share something so huge and meaningful with x amount of people. Once I learned what marriage meant to FH I wanted to share that with him more than anything. It wasn’t about a wedding it was about the meaning of marriage paper or no paper. I hope Mr German opens his mind/heart to learn what marriage means to his Ms German and hopefully once he learns he will want to share that - it can be him, her, and the JOP no attention 
There are many legal ramifications to being married that are even more powerful than the financial ones. Being able to make medical decisions for my spouse, and be updated by medical staff is among the most important to me. Perhaps the laws in Europe are different, but marriage goes beyond just the financial and commitment issues….that is why the fight for marriage equality (at least in this country) is so heated.
@ moderndaisy: I would argue that being “legally” allowed to sleep around does not imply that it is “allowed” by the other partner if not married. Married or not married, that’s not ok…Just because it is legal grounds for a divorce does not mean that it would not be equal grounds for a breakup as well. It not being explicitly banned by law does not by default mean that it would mean everyone would be sleeping around.
@moderndaisy: Well said!
My fiancee and I will have been together 7 years when we get married and have lived together for 5 years. He knew that I could never not be married and towards the end of our dating relationship, I was so over being the ‘girlfriend’ that we might have had problems if he didn’t propose. Then again I always knew he would propose one day because he also wanted to be married.
Sorry for the rant but I don’t know what I would have said and I’m thankful my fiancee wasn’t an ass like this guy. =)
I would get sooooo angry. I know everyone has the right to their own opinion, but people who pull the who “I don’t believe in marriage, what difference does a piece of paper make” drive me crazy. I think that it DOES make a difference in your mentality in your relationship. It’s a lot harder to walk out, and I think you work a lot harder at your relationship. Your partner is saying to you that he is committed to you forever and you are saying that to him. You think less selfishly. It’s more secure for the children. I could go on…
I studied abroad in Italy, and lived with a host family. My host parents very much live as a family, along with their ten-year-old daughter, but are not legally married. In every way shape and form they seem “married” to me, but they aren’t. I think things are just sort of different for many people in Italy, plus my host mother once explained to me that it was easier for her to get her daughter into cheaper childcare if she was single on paper (unmarried). Over time I began to just think of their situation as normal, and good for them. They seem no less committed to each other than I am to my husband, so in that sense I can maybe see where the German is coming from.
That said, my host mother thought I was insane when my (now) husband and I got engaged when he was visiting me in Italy. I definitely felt the cultural difference in a negative way at that moment. I do think that Europeans don’t view marriage in exactly the same way - after I was engaged they kept asking if I was having a “typically American-style” wedding (alla Americana). I think for them the emphasis we place on weddings is just a bit bizarre. But, to each their own, is the most important thing I think! As long as each individual couple is content with their status, I think it’s all good!
Not being married yet myself, I can’t speak from experience, but I do know many couples who lived together before they were married, and still decided to take the plunge. All of them say that something DID change once they were married. There is a newfound freedom, freedom that comes with knowing that the person you are waking up next to will always be there - each morning, day after day - no matter what happens in our waking lives. No matter how nasty the fight, no matter how devestating the disease, no matter how hurtful or boring or joyful each day is.
Part of being married is that it is a “pain in the ass.” Getting married says to the world: “I’m willing to put forth the time and energy to enter into something HUGE.” Whether it is taking the time go to City Hall and sign a license, or whether is it planning a huge 200 guest ceremony and reception. Weddings take time, weddings take effort, weddings bring families together (and tear them apart sometimes). Here’s the thing: so do marriages. Marrages take time and effort and all of the things that go into the making of them.
Weddings and marriages show the world that these two are joined forever (or at least till one person buries the other). That is big. Your German dinner guest may be committed to his girlfriend now - but when she decides to leave him in a year, or when he walks out in five years - no one is going to blink an eye. And no one should. They have decided to live their lives committed to one another….until they aren’t. Marriage takes away that option (or at least makes it MUCH more difficult).
I’d reckon that your German buddy is much less ambivilant to marriage than he lets on. Because if marriage really is “just a piece of paper”, then what’s the big deal? If the woman he loves wants that piece of paper, it would seem that getting it would be much less of a pain in the ass then seeing her wish for it. But then again, maybe it is not that he doesn’t want to be married - maybe he just doesn’t want to be married right now or to this woman. (As for the child issue - I’m also sure that he would not be head over heels if his girlfriend came to him and told him he was going to be a father - so his point about German law is moot).
Sorry for the long diatribe. I guess I had some opinions to get out.
I guess the part of this story that bugs me is not that this guy doesn’t believe in marriage, it’s that he knows his girlfriend does and would want to get married. That’s not very fair and I wonder if she knows his feelings. Although after 11 years i’d guess she would.
Even if we were never officially married, I would never leave or forsake him. He feels the same. It will never be the “piece of paper” that keeps us together during the hard times.
Don’t get me wrong. I want to get married and call him my husband and enjoy the legal benefits of a marital union. But I don’t believe not getting married makes the commitment any less real or meaningful.
In fact, I think being unmarried but staying together is sort of beautiful in a way…you stay because you said you would. Not because you’re legally bound or because divorce is expensive or any other reason.
Just throwing that in there
I never understand the “it’s just a piece of paper” line. Exactly - it’s just a piece of paper. So why not? seems to work everytime on my chicken guy friends.
It sounds to me like you handled yourself very nicely. I think people who don’t find marriage important will never understand those of us who do find it important.
I do think the “why buy the cow” argument is easier to answer for those of us of the religious persuasion. After all buying the cow - getting married - for a religious person means
1. Getting to have sex (if they waited - in which case I guess there was no milk)
2. Maybe getting to make a baby/create a family
3. Making a commitment to another person before a higher power - in Catholicism we believe getting married actually changes the bride and groom’s souls!!
But from a strictly secular point of view there are so many good reasons for getting married, too. Mr. Glasses put it best about doing it even if it is a pain in the ass. How… shallow can Mr. German be to not realize that it really means something to formalize a commitment in front of loved ones?
I think his attitude is awful, especially since he made it sound like his gf would want to get married and has been waiting for more than a DECADE. Honestly I think it’s mostly men who have the atttiude of “it’s just a piece of paper.” Feminism and the sexual revolution went just far enough for them to get all the free “milk” they could ever want , but not far enough to make them respect the women in their lives and THEIR plans and wants and needs!
Having spent some time in Europe and having a German host sister of my own in a committed non-marriage with a baby, this issue is extremely interesting to me. I found that many young Europeans have the view that marriage is not necessary and it is a better test of relationship anyway to be together and not married. What surprised me is how very many people felt that way. We are all very influenced by the cultures in which we live. Mr. German probably sees a lot of worthy un-married couple relationships that appeal to him, therefore, he wants to emulate that in his own life. However, in my small-town, midwestern U.S. view, when I look around, the best relationships I see are marriages. I am sure that is why I am influenced in my views.
I dunno, marriage isn’t for everyone, and I think that’s okay. This makes it seems like the German guy’s gf might care more about marriage than he does, but it also could be possible that they’ve talked about it, and they’re both cool with things as they are.
I have a cousin that has been dating his girlfriend/partner for over 15 years, and they’ll never marry. They just don’t care for the marriage as an institution, and I respect that. I don’t fully agree, but I get where they’re coming from.
I’ve got a friend who sees her boyfriend 3x per week, WEEKDAYS ONLY, gets taken out to a $20 dinner every few months, and this has been going on 4 years. He’s in his friggin 40s. She dreams of her wedding to him. I tried telling her he’s ei…ther married, has a girlfriend, or isn’t the marrying type. But of course she won’t listen, and he’s happy getting his ‘milk’ without having to really date her (or spend more than 6 hours with her a week.. 2 hours on mon, wed, friday… like clockwork). He doesn’t sleep at her place either. Had to get that off my chest. Makes me so mad but if she won’t see it, what can I do?
In some countries, getting married really doesn’t make a difference from a legal perspective (where I live in Canada, they’re enacting a lot of regulation changes around common law relationships because nationally they are becoming the norm). If it doesn’t make a different from a legal perspective, and it doesn’t make a difference from the emotional perspectives of the couple, why is this view so hard to understand? I was in a fully committed, marriage-like relationship with my husband for four years before we got married and the wedding process was just a celebration to us. It didn’t cause us to have discussions we weren’t already having, to think of our lives in relation to each other differently, to feel “as one” or any of the other ways people often say they feel different. The main difference has been in the social and families’ perceptions of our relationship. People have more respect for and acknowledge my relationship as the centrepiece of my life, which is welcomed, but a little silly and unfortunate for people who don’t want to get married. Clearly, Mr. German doesn’t care about the social value of being married. Also, why the assumption that he doesn’t know (or isn’t willing to admit) his girlfriend’s true desire to be married (not just have a wedding)? His comments about her reflect a desire for a wedding, not a marriage. Maybe she is the type of person who loves attention and when she gets in that mode can be inauthetic or insincere or even mean. Some people who are extroverted and care what others think gravitate to partners who are calmer and self-guided and socially flip….maybe parts of her want to have a wedding but it presents boundary issues for him. Who knows. Everyone’s relationship is different.
My husband and I have been married for a year and a half. Lived together (engaged) for 5, been together a total of 12 years. Life now is no different than it was 5 years ago. To me the commitment didn’t change just because I signed a paper, and you get to throw a fancy shin-dig infront of 200 people. While I think the the comment “why buy the cow etc.” is disrespectful to his gf, I agree that just because you are not married doesn’t make you any less of a couple than those who are nor does it make the commitment any less serious. This guy seems like he is not the committment type anyway, so no matter how strong your arguement, he won’t see your point. There are billions of stories out there, and you definitely should not get worked up over something like this.
I’m a big believer that marriage is more than a piece of paper and that there is a fundamental difference between living together and being married. I think you hit the nail on the head with the point about standing up there in front of your loved ones and declaring your intentions. That’s the most important part of engagement and marriage–the public declaration and call for support. We’re changing our community and we’re changing our family by saying we’re not just roommates, we’re not just lovers, we’re partners throughout this entire life.
well, two things.
as far as i’m concerned the only problem with his views on marriage is that it sounds like his girlfriend doesn’t agree. if two people want to be in a long-term non-marriage relationship, right on!
on the other hand, if two people in a relationship both think getting married is important, i fail to see how he should in any way mind that.
for me, it’s not about the piece of paper (it better not be ’cause i don’t get one). i don’t think it’s really the government’s place to conflate marriage and property rights (but that’s another say for another day). and i’m not very religious. but i am really, really excited about getting married, because i *do* think that the social importance of expressing our commitment in front of people will make it stronger.
I would tell him, if you can’t tell your friends that you love her— you DO NOT deserve to be with her!! Sounds like kind of a jerk to be in an argument with. Smug looks just make me want to turn tomato red and curse!
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Mrs. Glasses, Tokyo/Los Angeles, CA Age and Occupation: 24, English teacher Fiance's Age and Occupation: 27, English teacher Engagement Date: September 2008 Wedding Date: October 2010 Venue: Parents' backyard About Me: I’m an expat living in Tokyo. I’ve been in Japan for almost three years now, where I met my fantastic English fiance. It’s time to leave Japan, so we are planning a fun, intimate, backyard ceremony back home in the suburbs of L.A. in October. Our wedding will be a mix of my love for food, beer, my Japanese culture, and Mr. G’s Englishness. We are on a tiny budget and DIYing almost everything!
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